Lost in Time - der Missing Episodes Thread

Zitat von Pascal

Nicht unbedingt. Wenn diese alten Bänder falsch gelagert werden und dann altern, lösen sie sich in Essig auf. Das riecht man dann schon, wenn man solch einen Lagerraum betritt.

Äh, nein.
Megnetbänder bestanden in den Sechzigern schon längst nicht mehr aus Celluloseacetet, sondern aus PVC. Was Du meinst, sind Filmrollen, die zunächst auch Cellulosenitrat bestanden (was so einige Brände durch spontane Selbstentzündung verursacht hat) und später aus Celluloseacetat, bei dem durch hydrolytische Spaltung tatsächlich Essigsäure entsteht, die den Zerfallsprozess nochmals katalysiert. Bei Magnetbändern besteht aber ein ganz anderes Problem: sie entladen sich mit der Zeit, so dass die magnetisch gespeicherten Informationen immer schlechter zu lesen werden.

Ach Niki, Basiswissen:
Die alten Magnetbänder wurden gelöscht, um was anderes darauf aufzunehmen, denn die waren teuer.
Wenn man etwas findet, dann sind das Kopien auf Film. In dem Format wurden die auch um die Welt geschickt.

Zitat von Thorsten Volker Junkie

Ach Niki, Basiswissen:
Die alten Magnetbänder wurden gelöscht, um was anderes darauf aufzunehmen, denn die waren teuer.
Wenn man etwas findet, dann sind das Kopien auf Film. In dem Format wurden die auch um die Welt geschickt.

Das ist mir klar, aber Pascal redet von Bändern, die nicht wiederherzustellen waren, nicht von Filmaufnahmen.

Ich rede von den Filmbändern.

Zitat von Pascal

Ich rede von den Filmbändern.

Film und Band (engl. film und tape) sind aber unterschiedliche Medien. Wenn Du von "Bändern" redest, dann geht man normalerweise auch von Bandaufnahmen und nicht von Filmaufnahmen aus.
Aber gut, dass wir das geklärt hätten.

http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2…t-discovery-and-loss.html

Zitat von Doctor Who News

The Doctor Who Missing Episodes Discussion Group on Facebook has released audio files to the complete panels of episode hunter Philip Morris on last week's Pandorica Convention. In it he describes for the first time in detail his discovery of the 12 film cans in a TV station in Jos, which included all episodes of The Web of Fear and The Enemy of the World. He also reveals that the third episode of Web of Fear was among the cans but went missing again, presumably stolen.

This is a little bit of a revelation here now. There were twelve cans there, The Web of Fear was complete, the Enemy of the World was complete. I photographed them, the items were recorded, I knew exactly what was there. I said to one of the guys that was there with me, who works for me “make sure you put these films somewhere safe”. Because normally when you find something, you know it might disappear. I certainly didn’t want that to happen. So he put the films somewhere but as he was doing so the station manager came up and said “I’ll take that” and took one can, which was Episode 3, to his office. I didn’t know about this until later on. [...] When they were sent back episode 3 was missing. I highlighted it to the head of the NTAs and he said "are you sure? It was there". I said "there’s the photograph, it was complete". He then went back to the head of the station who said "Oh I put it back on the shelf. He said it must have gotten sent back up again and I didn’t believe that. Because it would have been there, it really would. It broke my heart that this piece was missing and I wanted to know why. Now I had let somebody know that I had found it, it was a big mistake, I realise that. And obviously that information leaked out. So, episode 3 was missing.

Philip Morris then continues that he is still searching for episode 3 and believes that it is in the hands of a private collector in Australia or the UK.

I went back to Nigeria this year to chase this one down. I spoke to the guy who was the station manager. He said "I put it back on the shelf". I said "I’ve got a photograph here, it was there". I said if it was there it would have been sent back. And then he just said “Well I don’t know anything about missing episodes". And I thought what a strange thing to say. And two days later after that Jos Station was on fire. [...] When I produced the photograph he was "oh dear, he's got proof that this was here." So the strangest thing was when he said to me "I don't know anything about the missing episodes" and I said "well I never mentioned missing episodes" and that was the big cat out of the bag, really so someone's obviously said "that's a missing episode" and offered him money.
It was completely the wrong thing to do, it should have come out with the rest of the story. That's why, you know, we have a sort of long recovery, getting it back to the UK, restoration, waiting on part 3, for that, because it should have been there and I thought it would come back.

And looking at it, this is what I personally think: Somebody rang up, they offered him money, he has taken that, it's been sent by courier, which you would have thought would be within Jos' area, it would be one of the courier companies. I have somebody actually looking at that now for any records... I'm not saying I'm going to print somebody's name online or anything like that, but if I get some kind of contact details I will be writing to the guy and asking them to do the right thing, but we'll see where that leads. Hopefully he'll do it on his own. So that's basically what happened. When you go to a station, you're not allowed to remove programmes, you've got to catalogue what you see, photograph what you see, and then, obviously you go back to the head of the station and you say "this is there, that's over there", and he'll just say "ok" then it goes back to Central, in Nigeria it goes back to Abuja, everything is catalogued so we know what's gonna leave the country, and then it's sent back to the UK.

(Question from an attendee) Do you think it's still in Nigeria, or did it actually make it to the UK? Do you think it's in the UK somewhere?

Phillip Morris: Hmmmmm, no, maybe not in the UK. It might be in Australia, somewhere like that. I don't know, it might be in the UK, but it was somebody - I trusted somebody. And within the space of a week the information was out there, as in someone had mentioned the station, this station had purchased Doctor Who, which it hadn't, and I thought "well hang on a minute, every single state in Nigeria has a newspaper to give you the programme listings, why has this one been pinpointed?" When the whole system worked, everything moved around someone obviously is not aware of that you can only find those details if you're actually aware of them. So it wasn't helpful, and with the project going forward people think "well, he's really secretive" but I have to be. I have to protect those things that come forward until we can tell the story.

(Question from attendee) Do you think that one has been taken because it was the Brigadier's first story?

Phillip Morris: No, it was coincidence. You've got to say, when that guy intervened, and went "I'll take those", it was random. I wish it had been episode one, or Enemy of the World episode three! It really must have been the luck of the draw.


You can listen to the complete audio panel and a followup conversation, which has been released with kind permission of Philip Morris here: http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2…t-discovery-and-loss.html

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http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2…lete-web-of-fear-and.html

Zitat von Doctor Who News

Photograph of the complete Web of Fear and Enemy of the World film cans released

Philip Morris of Television International Enterprises Archives (TIEA), who returned nine previously missing episodes of Doctor Who to the BBC Archives in 2013, recently revealed that he had found all episodes of The Web of Fear back then. Episode 3, featuring the first appearance of Colonel Lethbridge-Stewart, went missing again shortly after the discovery, presumably stolen and sold to a private collector.

The Doctor Who Missing Episodes Discussion Group on Facebook has now been given a photo of all 12 film cans found in Africa. They posted the picture on the Facebook group with permission by Philip Morris. On the photo you can see the production code PP (The Enemy of the World) written on the side of one of the cans, the further eleven cans are also part of that serial and of the following story The Web of Fear (Code QQ). Among them is the now once again missing episode 3 of the classic "Yeti's in the Underground"-story.

The following statement was released on Facebook:

On the second anniversary of the release of the newly-recovered and restored “Enemy Of The World” and “Web Of Fear”, Philip Morris, Executive Director of TIEA has authorized us (The Doctor Who Missing Episodes Group on Facebook) to release this photograph of the twelve film cans which he originally discovered in Jos, Nigeria.

This photo was taken immediately after Phil had discovered the film cans and verified that the film reels inside matched what was on the labels.

As you are no doubt aware, one of these film cans - the one containing Episode 3 of “The Web Of Fear” – went missing in between when this photo was taken (in late 2011) and when the cans were delivered to the central collection point in Abuja, Nigeria. The location and disposition of this film can and its contents is currently unknown.

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UPDATE

Statement von Phil Morris:

The picture you see is one I took after checking the 12 Doctor Who film cans in Jos in 2011. All film leaders were checked to ensure cans matched their contents, this is a practice we follow in fine detail with due care shown. All programmes held at this station were physically checked by myself and my own team. No undue attention was drawn to the Doctor Who prints by myself or any of my staff, however I instructed one of my trusted team to ensure the Doctor Who prints were hidden until authorisation for retrieval could be obtained.

However two prints, one QQ3 Web of Fear 3 and another spare print were taken from one of my guys by a guy at the station who took the two prints to his office. This was reported to me within hours. I was not unduly concerned I knew their location. I have to admit I was really excited and told somebody I thought would not leak any sensitive information -
big big mistake. Within 4/5 days the station had been named online. Fortunately by this time our job was done, however what of Web 3? I physically searched Jos again, asked the guy who took the films where they were. Initially he denied all knowledge until I produced the picture-he just looked at the floor and said he put them back on the shelf.

I didn't believe a word, and took the pictures and with one of my collegues and went straight to the top of the NTA, however the guy simply denied it. That is until earlier this year when I returned to Nigeria. I met the same guy again so I asked him directly - he just laughed and said "I don't know anything about missing episodes."
I firmly believe this episode is in the hands of a fan and we will trace it. I hope this goes someway to explain why I must maintain a certain level of security around TIEA and its work.

Auf Gallifreybase hat jemand folgendes gepostet:

Zitat

]I’m impatient with the BBC, so ¤¤¤¤ it..

In June this year, I was at a carboot sale in Scotland (south-west) and I met a film collector who was selling various film prints at surprisingly decent prices! Amongst them were 3 cans of Doctor Who (Daleks 2, Edge of Destruction 1, Reign of Terror 1 - all redundant prints). Interested in seeing if he had any connections he wrote and gave me a list of contacts on a piece of paper.

In the next two weeks, I spent a lot of time calling these numbers (and in return, got more numbers) and I’ve been privately collecting episodes of Doctor Who throughout June-July. In August, I sent the episodes to the BBC - but they have yet to do anything about it. No idea what’s going on as it’s up to them and they never got back to me about it.

The following episodes I required (that were missing) are as followed…

The Crusade 2 4
The Myth Makers 1
The Celestial Toymaker 1
The Savages 2
The Smugglers 1 3
The Highlanders 1 2 3 4
The Underwater Menace 1 4
The Macra Terror* 1 2 4
The Faceless Ones* 4 5 6
The Abominable Snowmen 3 5
Fury From The Deep* 1 2 3
The Space Pirates* 4

That’s 25 episodes now returned to the BBC archives.

* Apparently, the collectors who had The Macra Terror, The Faceless Ones, Fury From The Deep and The Space Pirates obtained them all in their entierity but in the last 10 years have sold the missing episodes individually to private collectors (who I am still currently trying to track down), meaning that the following may infact still exist but have yet to be found.

The Macra Terror 3
The Faceless Ones 2 (and redundant prints of 1 and 3)
Fury From The Deep 4 5 6
The Space Pirates 1 4 5 6

Interestingly enough, the collector who obtained The Space Pirates did not have a print of episode 2. Is it possible that the one that currently exists in the BBC archives is from the same set? I’m just guessing but there’s probably evidence against that.

The already existing episodes included (I did not buy these):

The Aztecs 1 2 3 4
The Sensorites 2
The Dalek Invasion of Earth 6
The Ark 3
The Tenth Planet 2
The Underwater Menace 2 3
The Ice Warriors 4 5
The Seeds of Death 1
The War Games 1

I have taken no photographs of the films because I saw no need to. I wanted to keep this low-key because I didn’t want things to go tits up like the last time. I’m only posting here because 3 months have passed since I sent the cans and I’ve heard no word - at all.

I have not opened the film cans. I have no film projector, so I’m not even sure if the contents match the labels. Who knows, there could be something else other than Space Pirates 4
Some episodes were more expensive than others. I won’t go into anymore detail on how much money was spent getting them.

If you don’t believe me or think this is a hoax - fair enough. I understand considering what’s happened in the past with hoaxes.
But hopefully soon the BBC does something about it and announces them or whatever.

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Klingt alles viel zu schön, um wahr zu sein.

Zitat von Pascal

Auf Gallifreybase hat jemand folgendes gepostet:

Klingt alles viel zu schön, um wahr zu sein.

In der Tat. Interessanterweise hat er nicht einmal Fotos von den Filmdosen, um seine Behauptung zu unterfüttern. Wenn das aber stimmt, dann gibt es einen privaten Sammlermarkt von alten Folgen, welche zum Erhalt der Exklusivität vor der BBC geheim gehalten werdne. Was dem Erhaltungstatus nicht sehr zuträglich sein dürfte. Aber allein die 2 Folgen The Crusaders würden Staffel 2 schon mal komplettieren. Ansonsten würde ein komplettes The Highlanders das früheste erhaltene Material mit Troughton darstellen, noch dazu komplett.

Das Problem ist doch, dass die BBC vor allem ein hochkomplexer politischer Apparat ist.
Auf der einen Seite möchte die aktuelle Regierung die BBC quasi abschaffen.
Auf der anderen Seite gibt es extrem viele Stellen und extrem viele Managementposten die sich für wichtig halten und sich schon aus Prinzip querstellen.

Angesichts dieses schwierigen Umfelds ist meine aktuelle Theorie:

• alle Folgen bis auf Dalek Masterplan wurden gefunden
• daraufhin wurde die Animation von Underwater Menace gestoppt
• manche haben extreme Abzockpreise verlangt
• die BBC hat dagegen argumentiert, dass die Sammler die Kopien gar nicht legal erworben haben können und mit der Polizei gedroht
• im Anschluss sind die Folgen erst mal in dunklen Kanälen verschwunden
• die BBC hat daraufhin um sich nicht erpressen zu lassen, das Restaurationsteam aufgelöst
• um zu beweisen, dass die BBC das Thema Classic Doctor Who abgeschlossen hat, haben sie dann noch ein minderwertiges Underwater Menace herausgebracht
• aktuell spielen alle Beamtenmikado

Hmm, also hat genug Ecken und Kanten, das es real sein könnte (oder gut ausgedacht). Wäre aber schon ein ganz schöner Brocken, das klingt schon eher komisch.

Ansonsten bin ich ja auch eher auf dem Stand, dass ich es erst glaube, wenn die BBC was sagt, aber nach dem Underwater-Menace-Debakel traue ich es denen zu zu sagen: "Och nö, da hat schon wieder so'n Nerd was gefunden, da müssen wir den alten Scheiss ja auch noch auf DVD veröffentlichen."

Das ganze klingt total unglaubwürdig!

Da kauft einer mal eben so innerhalb von drei Monaten 25 Missing Episodes zusammen? Stellt Euch alleine mal vor was das gekostet haben muss!

Dieser jemand macht also einen sagen wir mal 6-stelligen Betrag von Pounds locker, schenkt das ganze dann einfach mal so der BBC? Und schaut für das viele Geld was er bezahlt hat nicht mal nach um zu sehen was in den Filmrollen wirklich drinnen ist? Man hätte ihm also für das Geld auch irgend einen Müll in die Hand drücken können?

Sorry, aber diesen Quatsch glaube ich nicht eine Sekunde!

Ich glaube es auch nicht. Vor allem hat er sich auf Nachfragen im Thread immer weiter in Widersprüchlichkeiten verstrickt.

Vor allem wenn die Einleitung schon mit "This sounds like a hoax but it isn't" anfängt, sollte man sehr vorsichtig sein.

Update: Da sich in diesem Thread seit einem halben Jahr nichts getan hat, Frage an Pascal: gibt es was Neues von der Front?

Nein. Nur wieder mal ein neuer Hoax vor kurzem.

Heute gegen 13 Uhr ist Phil Morris in einem Panel mit dem BFI Direktor Dick Fiddy im Gespräch auf dem Starburst Festival. NATÜRLICH kursieren wieder die wildesten Gerüchte. Einfach mal abwarten ob etwas dabei rauskommt. Ich vermute eher nicht.

UPDATE:

Phil hat auf dem Panel hauptsächlich berichtet wie er mit der Suche begonnen hat, das Bicycle System der BBC erklärt und wo er schon überall war. Außerdem meinte er, dass wenn es eine Ankündigung geben wird, dann würde die aus dem Nichts heraus geschehen und alle überraschen.

Heute um 1 Uhr unserer Zeit wird die BBC eine Ankündigung machen... Who knows?

Jetzt bin ich gespannt ...